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Newsbyteblog: the blog of newsbyte regarding all things IT, free speech, copyright and patents and other things deemed interesting.

Sunday, May 15, 2005

The way Freenet goes wrong


Who says birds of a feather flock together? Maybe they do, but there can be a lot of picking, regardless.

Ian and me go back a long time, by now. More then 4 years ago, I began a more active involvement in his Freenet-project; back then the Big New Hot Thing of the time in cyberspace. While, at first, things went along pretty well, our mutual understanding deteriorated to the point where I am now blacklisted on his emaillist - an unicum, according to himself.

The reasons are diverse; he blames it on arrogance; I do the same. Only we have eachother posts' in mind. :-) We are probably both guilty; Ians' ego is as stuborn as mine, and sometimes personalities (or ego's) just don't get along. One would think that, me and him, both libertarian minded, would get along just fine, but the contrary is true; we're too much alike. The difference being, he manages his OSS projects in the cathedral way - instead of the bazaar way, and having been a central application manager myself, I can see how he mismanages most of the projects in a terrible way. He, ofcourse, has another opinion, and since I'm not a coder, he finds all what I say of little interest - so he has claimed himself. This attitude is pervasive and widespread, which, IMHO, is one of the reasons Freenet has went nowhere, even after 5 years of development.

Obviously, Ian disagrees. He cites it's novel and complex as the reasons...but that doesn't explain why there isn't more effort to involve people, why so many have thrown Freenet in the bin and went to I2P, which, strangely enough *does* manage to get considerable leaps in usability. AND in a fraction of the time that Freenet took to come up with a largely defunct network - even though for years Freenet has a full-time payed coder, where I2P has to manage with what volunteers can do in their spare time. The 'complexity of the code' has nothing to do with how one manages projects on the human-management level, especially OSS projects; and if, like Ian does, you do not deem any input comming from a non-coder as being worth your attention, then there is something wrong with how you regard contributions. If you think only code matters, then you fail to realise the potential every person can give to a project.

I'll take myself as an example, since I know that case best ;-). I am not a coder (unless in a very minor way with js), and I have said so from the start. Yet, of all the non-coders, I dare say I have done the most: I have sponsored and donated to Freenet myself, I have searched and found new additional sponsors for Freenet, I have helped maintain and update the site, I have offered to help with showing a more transparent way concerning the finances of the project (it's financed by the public, after all, as a non-profit org. At the end - you guessed it - it was ultimately denied), I have erected the freenethelp-site (and given it webspace, hosting and maintainance for free) which is meant to help users of Freenet, I have run several nodes and inserted content, etc.

Does all this mean anything in the eyes of the founder of Freenet? Well, apparently not much. This was more then obvious when I posted a critical suggestion or comment. It is true; after a while, I and others began to lose patience, and I posted several posts that were less then diplomatic - but I really can't feel much remorse, because I only react to people as they react to me. At least I wasn't hypocritcally lecturing anyone about how one should behave, while disregarding it myself. Ian apparently fails to realise, that comments with criticism are wortwhile too, and should be considered contributions, not attacks - even when, through his own fault of continious disdain of non-coder input, some posted with a lot of sarcasm at the end (including myself, I confess). But ofcourse, no doubt Ian sees this in a whole other light, so I'll give some examples:

I and others have numerous times suggested things that most would see as obviously welcome. An example is: a search-engine. One has to be blind and stupid not to realise this is one of the major disadvantages of Freenet: it has no capability to search. While it was clear that a true searchengine was not for the forseable future, someone with a feeling for what the public wants could have decided to make a temporary one. That someone wasn't Ian. Every suggestion was deemed unacceptable, if not 'idiotic'. His reasoning was like: it's not good enough. A client-based js searchengine? No way, josé! He'd rather have nothing then a temporary solution. And at the end, he had exactly that: nothing.


Numerous other times have followed the same pattern: making his freenet-finances more transparent? Not necessary. Creating TUKs or other ways of having permanent yet updated freesites, without having to go through the hassle of inserting them every 24 hours? Not needed. Creating a testnetwork so we could actually have a chance of making progress in defining the underlying routing/loadbalance problems? A waste of time. Providing a bit more news or feedback to the users/sponsors/etc so that you create a sense of involvement and direction, instead of the impression everthing lies dead in the water? We have more important things to do! (untill users and sponsors don't donate enough money anymore, then suddenly it becomes important, and the begging begins). Try to involve others more in the project, even coding wise?

There have been numerous suggestions from me and others about this in the past, but somehow, it's never deemed worth a response. Yet, other, similar projects are more open and flexible, and at least give it a try: http://dev.i2p.net/pipermail/i2p/2005-May/000727.html If I2P can do it, why can't we?

But; offering bounties for help in some areas of Freenet-coding? Hell no! Making better documented specs, so coders that weren't here from the start have a fair chance of understanding the code before they die of old age? Who cares!

It is exactly that sort of pervasive we-do-as-we-like-and-screw-the-rest mentality that destroys that what is precisely the strongest asset and driving force of many OSS. Ian fails to see this, alas. Does it surprise anyone, that Freenet, after years of development is, where it was 5 years ago, in a practical-usability sense?

Sure, numerous technical things have changed, and new features and possibilities and routingmechanisms have been touted, again and again, as the solution for a working Freenet-network. But, at the end, we still have a crappy network with little content to be found, where it takes days to get connected, and where it is virtually impossible to get any of ten randomly chosen freesites (which was proven by me with factual data; the only way to do it, because it was, time and again, refuted that freenet was working like crap as I said it was. One can see this data in the archives of the mailists; it comes right after the episode where Ian revoked my freenet-emailaddress, because my critical attitude to the current development-proces was aparently not to his likings).

There is also a grand self-delusion going on, with Ian, and even with Toad, where they think they actually have a GOOD working network. I don't know how this is possible. Maybe they base themselves wrongly on their own experiences with their optimised nodes, that are running 24/24, 7/7 and act as seednodes. Or maybe they just don't want to realise what most joe doe users (and slashdotters) already have realised and said in their posts: that Freenet, while a good idea, just sucks, currently.

It is with pain in my heart that I have to agree with that, because I really like the project as a concept, and I have invested much time and money and effort in it - even when it is not appreciated by the Higher Gods. In fact, if I hear someone else speak negatively about freenet, I have the reaction to defend it too - so it's not like I don't understand Ians' irrational attitude towards criticism, when you view that as an attack. But, one can not deny it any longer: Freenet has gone nowhere, in a practical joe-doe-can-use-it sense. After 5 years, we have nothing to show for it, and I largely blame the management - and the unwillingness to listen to input from others - for it.

Now, once again, a decision has been made (from the 'top' down, as usual) to completely revamp Freenet, once again. Will it be any better now? Not if things don't change management-wise, and attitude-wise, but Ian&co doesn't seem inclined to try another approach. Version 0.7! All those wonderful ideas! But some already suck, like making *two* networks, one open and one darknet with a Gmail-like invite-only system (and insanly presumed to be as succesful), instead of just using a hybrid, like I and others have suggested, and which makes the most sense to everyone exept a few Higher Gods. So, one can already see where this will be going, one bad development-decision after another; to another 4 years of haphazard-development, with not much to show for at the end in a pragmatical sense, again. After months of being dead in the water - apart from some simulations - we are already feeling a weird deja-vue, even before actual coding has began.

But then again, I doubt anything will change in that regard: if you can't code, your viewpoints aren't worth considering, and thus, neither will this blogcomment. Some people just never learn, and the project suffers for it. I've made this blog-entry with the specific hope it would awaken at least some of the people who have the most say in the project, and maybe, finally, make a drastic change in the way things are done, and to help the project out of it's eternal loophole where it has been meandering these last 5 years. In reality, ofcourse, it's quite possible I simply will get banned form the maillist alltogether. Don't listen to the message; kill the messenger: that always has been the prefered way of dealing with unpleasant news, by some - to their own detriment, ultimately.

10 Comments:

Anonymous Chiraz said...

Hi NewsByte,

Hats off for your courage.

With your experience of FreeNet and the issues of anonymous browsing etc, do you think you could write a new blog entry where you clarify the (various?) needs that people have for anonymous browsing and what in your view is an acceptable level of anonimity? I mean, something insightful that approaches the topic from the end of society and where the software only is the vehicle? :)

One of the items I don't really get is that without searching or 'publishing' mechanisms, how can one really get the news of interest? If I were to shutdown FreeNet, I'd probably start shutting down those index servers?

Zero Knowledge had some interesting technology once. They relied on servers however. It had widespread use. It'd be good if the concept can be p2p-ed to lower the TCO.

I think the majority of people are not interesting in getting absolute anonimity. I think the majority of people are interested in getting an acceptable level of anonimity. It would be good to define what this acceptable level is (not military strength, like FreeNet?) and then turn this into set of guidelines and principles and a proper software design before any code is written.

But alas, maybe i2p is the above design and implementation? Now, all people need, are instrumental tools that make these technologies easy to use.

7:38 PM  
Anonymous Eric said...

I have some familiarity with how you feel. I have high hopes for freenet, but after years of trying to write applications for that platform, I grew discouraged. I wrote a bit about it here: http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/1440/, where I describe efforts to learn from the lessons of Freenet in a new (much simpler) p2p RPC system called Kenosis

We'd welcome anyone to come join the Kenosis community - even the critical non-coders. Interested?

8:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pretty much sums up what I know from Freenet.

They were hostile just based upon me trying to make it work on OpenBSD (for which Sun's Java 1.3 was the only one available and working for a LONG time), and extended that by bashing on my nationality.

2:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


What is the difference between then and than?

5:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I gave $500 to the i2p project for a bounty and plan to give a lot more

I would never give 5 cents for freenet No need to support Ian's experiments and Toad's church!

7:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Recently there has been much hype by some bloggers and on digg.com about freenet being the next bittorrent.

Anyone that knows freenet, can speak volumes as to why that is very wrong.

Granted back years ago I along with many others had high hopes for freenet and would stick up for it relentlessly.

Now after years of going nowhere and the new .7 development being announced and promoted as the best thing since sliced bread, well I'm fustrated.

We have real working solutions like i2p, that don't get nearly that much hype and its clients get mostly ignored.

Right now we need more people to join and use i2p. Never mind what others might say, it is clearly ready now.

Sure it would be better for the developers if the network work to stay small, however at some point, we have to say enough is enough and move ahead anyways. Now is the time, not days, weeks, months or god forbid years from now.

As of 0.6.1.7 and on, i2p is ready. It's been tested well enough and had a long enough test period with a small network of peers. Time for testing on a much larger scale, with at least thousands of peers to start with.

I don't doubt the networking is ready for such a large scale test. That it will scale fine and work.

At this point I am seriously doubting that the naysayers are correct about waiting longer.

4:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Newsbyte was never really "involved" in the freenet project. He merely trolled the mailing list. He didn't participate in the development of the project, and he's widely considered a pest within the community.

Don't take anything this guy says seriously.

6:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, but that's not substantiated by the facts. Unless one defines 'involved in the project' as the mere coding-aspect of the application itself.

As Newsbyte himself already acknowledged several times: he ain't a coder. He doesn't claim to have coded neither, nor does he make comments on the actual code itself.

But I agree with his statement that the 'freenet project' involves more then just the coding-aspect. If one checks the history of the maillists, one can see that only those that feel criticised by his remarks consider him nothing then a troll or pest - which is quite understandable. ;-)

But Toad, the main coder, is not of that opinion, nor are others. And seen the testing of the nodes since the 0.4 version, the active sponsor-seeking (and finding) for the project, the maintainance of the freenethelp-wiki, etc. one can hardly claim your opinion has much merrit.

But I guess anyone is entitled to his opinion - as Newsbyte no doubt would say himself, free-speech-minded as he seems to be.

7:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i2p.net sucks too, because they made it java based. They don't listen to what the users want. They are off in their own little world.

7:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have tried and worked with tor, freenet, mute, gnunet, jap, omemo and proxychain. I2P works well, has some interesting apps, good future and a jerk can use it (i even expect portable-firefox+I2P to arise as the definitive privacy bundle, idiot proof).

Now go tell my mother how to get some refs to bootstrap freenet and tell me freenet is ready for the masses. It is not. I thank them the awareness they helped to create about darknets, but the code is still vapor or crappy, after 5 years of paid development. It is time to ask why.

4:46 PM  

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